Difference Between Lutheran and Catholic
Lutheran vs Catholic
Christianity saw its evolution as a Jewish sect in east Mediterranean. Christianity is considered to be a monotheistic religion – believing that there is only one god. This is based on the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. Catholics were the early Christians to follow the teachings of Christ. The Catholic Church refers to all believers of Christ without any denominational affiliation. This believes that bishops are the highest order of ministry among Christians. According to them, Jesus made Peter guard the place on which his church would be built. Jesus will be followed by mere mortal men who would be called as Pope. As Popes were gaining authority, their indulgences for money grew. This also led them into involvement in politics.
500 years ago, Martin Luther a German reformer’s perception on Christian theology and practices of the church helped in the evolution of Protestant Reformation. During his time Martin Luther was an exception with his Church contributions. Since the church was not following Catholic way, he took the path to advocate reforms with practices of church. This section of people which grew rapidly, were unsatisfied with the practices of Catholic Church joined the ranks of Lutherans.
Martin Luther believed and advocated that Western Church should return to what he thought, was a biblical foundation. He was advocating the Western Church reform and not to create a separate branch of Christianity. Lutheran Christianity is popularly known as Protestants.
The historic split between Catholic and Lutheran took place over the doctrine of Justification before God. According to Lutheranism, faith alone and Christ alone could save an individual. This is well contradicted by the Catholic’s belief that faith formed by love and work alone will save an individual. Lutheran theology advocates difference in theology, Christology, the purpose of God’s Law, divine grace, and predestination.
Lutherans also advocate that god’s grace will be granted only for the sake of Christ’s merit. Orthodox Lutheran theology holds that God made the world, perfect, holy and sinless.
Lutherans believe that Jesus Christ is God by nature and as a man. They also confess in Luther’s Small Catechism that he is “true God begotten of the Father from eternity and also true man born of the Virgin Mary”. This sect of people advocates that sacraments and sacred acts are part of divine institution.
In spite of the differences in theology of Catholic Church, Lutherans continue to use pre-reformation church liturgical practices and sacramental teachings. The Protestants church teaches the doctrine of Luther and does not accept the Pope as their leader. Protestants also avoid use of the term Catholic instead of the term Christian to distinguish their own position from a Calvinist or Puritan form of Reformed-Protestantism.
Today, Lutheranism is one of the important offshoots of Western Christianity. Lutheran’s identify themselves with the teachings of Martin Luther.
Summary:
1.Lutheranism advocates that Grace and Faith alone can save an individual from his sin.
2.Roman Christians believe in faith formed by love and work could save an individual.
3.Lutherans believe that Jesus Christ is God by nature and as a man.
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Wow. The only thing missing from this article, painfully obviously written by a Roman Catholic, is the characterization of Lutherans as a sub-standard species.
I’m sorry, but this is just a TERRIBLE article, obviously written from the perspective of a person who believes that Roman Catholicism is (and has always been) the center of the Christian universe. It is condescending and disrespectful to a broad spectrum of believers who are by no stretch of the imagination the “also rans” that the author of this article clearly believes them to be.
Luther loved the Roman Catholic Church, in which he was an ordained priest. It pained him, almost beyond his ability to put into words, that he was forced to call the Church and its then-pope on its both bad behavior (primarily the selling of indulgences, though there was much, much more) and theological unsoundness. Luther’s criticism was based on incontrovertible biblical evidence. He wasn’t trying to form a new denomination. He was appalled by words like “protestant” and “Lutheran.” He wanted to stay in the Roman Catholic Church, but just reform some of its thinking and ways of acting.
Every time I read a contrast between Roman Catholics and Lutherans, I can always easily determine which form of Christianity is the author’s theological underpinning. And here’s what’s nearly always true about contrasts written by Lutherans: There is exhibited in the writing a profound respect for the Roman Catholic Church and a truthful characterization of its beliefs, sensibilities and practices (as opposed to this condescending piece of garbage which relegates Lutherans to the stockpile of the protestant misguided).
Only if the Lutheran writing the contrast is of the more conservative type — WELS Lutherans, or LC-MS (German) Lutherans, or former ALC Lutherans, etc. — which believes in Biblical inerrancy and, in some cases, is running headlong toward the palms-to-the-heavens, happy-clappy praise music of the Evangelicals, will the characterization of the Roman Catholics sometimes be legitimately either downright unfair, or at least bordering on it. But as long as the Lutheran is of the more progressive type (most, but not all of whom, are members of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA), the contrast between Lutherans and Roman Catholics will be fair-minded, respectful and accurate when describing the Roman Catholic Church.
This article needs to be VASTLY re-written, or this “Difference Between” web site will have no credibility. I noticed some serious issues in some of the other religious articles, too. However, as an ELCA Lutheran (or at least that was my upbringing), it seems logical to start here.
____________________________________
Gregg L. DesElms
Napa, California USA
gregg at greggdeselms dot com
Well written, Greg. I’m an ELCA Lutheran as well. We Lutherans still believe we are part of the Church Catholic. We have heavy dialogue with the Roman Catholic Church and love and respect our mutual beliefs and Sacraments. I do not consider myself a “run of the mill protestant”, but a proud Lutheran who loves and demands The Eucharist and other Sacraments retained by Luther. You’re on the same page as myself, as my Pastor told me “We do not look to Luther as the creator of a new Church, but as a Worshipping and Eucharstic Church that was cleansed by Luther of any distortions that were not necessary for our salvation. The Sign of the Cross, the Mass and all other Rites of the Church shall be ours. We are not “Reformed Protestants”. People need to know how unique ELCA Lutherans are. True to our Catholic heritage-with a more “personal touch”. God Bless-Mitch.
You are missing the point. Luther committed heresy by stating that men are saved by grace alone and not by the works of showing love for others as Jesus Christ displayed in the gospels- great works of charity to others- driving your poor neighbor home from the grocery store. You need to show love to you neighbor through acts of charity. We still love you though. Even though we sometimes get frustrated with your teaching. You have to show love!
Ephesians 2:8-9- For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
There is nothing our imperfect, humanly bodies can do to be saved. Salvation comes through Jesus’ sacrifice SO that we didn’t have to do good works to go to Heaven. And don’t say I’m some pansy Baptist who believes that “we just have to believe that Jesus died and rose again to go to Heaven”
I am an ELCA Lutheran who KNOWS that salvation comes through true faith (Repentance sinless lfestyle, etc.)
I have studied with many denominations. Baptists that I have studied with believe in The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit, also all God’s Commandments! True Communion. Not to just anyone. Faith without works is Dead. All things through Christ, also as He commanded. They pray to God Our Creator in Jesus name.
St. John’s assurance that “you have eternal life” is a proclamation of every Christian’s moral—
not absolute—assurance of salvation. Christ offers us the gift of salvation, and he will not go
back on his word.
But you and I are entirely capable of going back on our word by abandoning Christ and,
thereby, forfeiting his gift of salvation. St. Paul speaks about this in 2 Timothy 2:11-13:
if we deny him, he also will deny us; if we are faithless, he remains faithful— for he cannot
deny himself.
Take care to notice the particular “if” in this passage. So while it’s true that we may indeed
“have” salvation, whether or not we keep our grasp on it is another matter.
The Bible is clear that, tragically, Christians can indeed lose their salvation by sinful rebellion
against God. As the Lord himself declared, “So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of
you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart” (Matt. 18:35).
Ask yourself: Why would Christ warn us about this, if there was no danger that it could
happen? See these additional verses for more: Matt. 7:21-23; Matt. 10:22; John 5:29;
Rom. 2:5-11; Rom. 8;24-25; 1 Cor. 9:27; 1 Cor. 10:12; Heb. 6:11; Phil. 2:12-13; 1 John 3:21-
24; 1 John 4:20-21.
Salvation is a gift from God, not something we earned through our actions. We still have to be faithful to the authority that Jesus Christ gave to the Church and participate in the New Covenant with humanity to maintain that salvation.
2 Pt 1:20
“Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation,”
The ability and authority to interpret and change Church teachings was given by God(Jesus) to Peter and the Church, not to an individual priest who was disappointed in the Popes actions. Correctly disappointed, but without the authority to change teachings given by God himself.
I Spent 31 years in the catholic church and 30 years in the Baptist
church.
In the 1960’s I
took the Baltimore
catechism. The problem is mankind’s
difference. Salvation is who is in
your heart. Martin Luther was a great
man. Thank you.
Excellent. Regards from a Roman Catholic. God bless
I agree with all that you wrote. The article left me confused and irritated
yep! Not sure I should read any of the others now, but maybe a synopsis will help MK!
Funny you say that, I am a Roman Catholic and was offended in the first paragraph by anti-Catholic rhetoric. Understanding others Faith should never be condescending. Remember, above all Christ asked us to (love God and) love one another as ourselves.
I absolutely agree Adam. Seems to be a downward spiraling contest of condescension…ugh!
I agree with Adam. The two greatest commandments are love God and love your nieghbor. I admit I wasnt loving my nieghbor when I rebuked and refuted someone’s reply in a way that was inappropriate on a youtube video. I have to be better than that.
Very well written and presented Greg….. I was baptized both as a Roman Catholic and a Lutheran…. I am also in search of the truth…. I move with the ebb and flow of my biblical conscience….. which, sadly, I have yet to master…. or discern…. but rest assured that this well composed article will have a very serious influence on the outcome of my choice. Thanks Man….God Bless You…..
I really need to know the difference. If you are better informed then this particular writing you should write the next one.
Hello, Gregg and a Merry Christmas to you. I just wanted to thank you for your view on this article. I am a long-time Catholic and frankly knew very little about the Lutheran church. My wife and I take our young son to a Lutheran pre-school twice a week for three and unders and enjoyed a Christmas concert put on by all of the little ones last night at the church. Never having been in a Lutheran church before it was clear from the onset that standard operating procedures were very similar to the Catholic church. Anyway, continuing with my ignorance about Martin Luther I looked up the differences between the two churches today and came across this article and your response to it and I just wanted to thank you for taking the time to clarify some of the important and clearly omitted aspects of the Lutheran church. Have a fine holiday season!
What caused separation between Roman Catholic church and Evangelical Lutheran Church, reply please!
I am a baptized, confirmed, catholic CCD teacher who is fed up with the Catholic Church and attended my first Lutheran mass this morning. What a breath of fresh air. I was amazed that the pastor invited me to receive communion and although I declined citing no confession this week he smiled and said “we’ll take care of that for you in a few minutes.” In any case, I am a retired Chief of police turned psychologist turned college professor Iraq combat vet and have had ample opportunity to explore faiths, sometimes in the middle of heated hostilities and contemplate what Grace really is and/or what I personally feel it should be and that is not what I have witnessed develop in the Church I grew up loving. So, without being wordy I’m trying to research how to convert it if there really is a formal process for that? I read the article you commented on and funny enough that’s why I’m corresponding with you….I read it and thought, “oh brother, figures. has to be a Catholic author.” That sort of entitled-ish attitude is precisely why I attended a Lutheran Mass this morning and really enjoyed it as well as the Pastor and the people in attendance. Totally different ambience. As in NOT pomp, circumstance or rigidity. AN all around pleasant experience. I’ll be going back as soon as I can and as soon as I can get info on how to convert if need be I will be converting. I’ve sat on this long enough and as a person who was supposed to be deceased ala cancer by last November I have no time to spare! True story, given 3-5, 6 years ago and for whatever reason death just isn’t working out for me so time to live on. Your comment was well articulated and had me laughing. Nice job!
The reply that you wrote is not very good as well. It seems like you are writing from a Lutheran perspective. Just remember, Catholics was the first church, and always will be.
I know you might be offended by what she said for writing in that type of point of view but you are doing the same thing
You are also using the “I was here first move so I’m superior ”
That is really sad. You guys are are fighting , quarreling for what ?
Your selfish pride!?!?
We all worship the same god we just believe and see the Bible in different perspectives
Ask yourself this
Is this meaning less bickering
Really what he would wish you to do? This fight you have is not about god I can tell you that
It is about your selfish pride
Is this really what you see as god’s message through the Bible
If god really wants you to quarrel for your selfishness then fine , so be it
I am a Roman Catholic, but I believe that the differences between us are simple and can be easily resolved. We share so many beliefs, and we could reunite without too much issue. Although, I do know people who refuse to accept science because of the Bible. It really isn’t hard to compromise on that. One thing that I recently thought of was; the seven days are a metaphor. Doesn’t it make sense that the seventh day is still going? It’s fun to ponder.
Thanks this is the best reply ! Well done .
No one is denying Catholic as the first church but honestly speaking if an article is to be written diffreciating between the Catholic and Lutheran, facts must be taken into consideration…You can’t be Catholic and write an article from only your perspective and only on things you have heard about Lutheranism …and i can also not do that too…how about facts be gathered and known from both perspectives of churches
WOW AGAIN, THE DESCRIPTIVE SOUNDED NON-CATHOLIC TO ME. DOESNT SOUND LIKE A CATHOLIC AUTHOR TO ME , BECAUSE RIGHT AWAY HE/SHE TALKS TRASH ON THE POPE . ANYWAYS…… EVENTHOUGH LUTHER DIDNT WANT TO LEAVE THE CHURCH HE OPENED UP THE FLOODGATES. DIDNT HE SAY THAT EVEN THE PLOWBOYS AND SERVANT GIRLS ARE INTERPRETING …..I FORGET THE REST….BUT YEA, IT WOULD BE NICE IF UNITY COULD HAPPEN…BECAUSE THERE IS TOO MUCH ARGUING ABOUT WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS OR DOESNT SAY…..
WHAT IF WE DIDNT HAVE THE BIBLE? OR IT WASNT FINISHED YET? WHAT WOULD THAT BE LIKE? WE STILL WOULD HAVE THE CHURCH. THE BODY OF CHRIST. THE BRIDE OF CHRIST. THE BODY OF BELEIVERS. AND THE SACRED TRADITIONS OF THE APOSTLES, TAUGHT BY JESUS.
Amen
To: Peter
Seems like? Gee… what was your first clue? What part of my full disclosure of being an ELCA Lutheran (or at least that that has been the brand of faith of my upbringing and most of my adult life) did you not notice before coming to this (obviously) startling (to you, at least) conclusion? Or has it always been your practice to tend to gross understatement? [A rhetorical question, which you needn’t bother answering]
And for how long has your debate style been of the immature “I’m rubber, you’re glue” type? How ’bout some actual substance…
…er… you know… beyond the grammatically appalling (and culturally and educationally revealing) “Catholics was the first church, and always will be.”
[sigh]
For starters, you might want to brush-up on the history of Christianity — a version, I mean, which has not been carefully filtered through the perspective of Roman Catholocism — before declaring, with (obviously ignorant) certainty, what was or wasn’t the original church (and especially what always will or won’t be)…
…and by inference, then, also, what is or isn’t the mediator between man and the Divine.
Of course, to properly do this I realize that one must struggle through, and somehow reconcile, in a manner similar to what Erasmus thought he had done, the fundamental differences between the Franciscan/Thomisitic rational belief that Christianity is its tradition, as codified and systematized by Thomistic methods of scholasticism; versus the Augustinian/Lutheran claim that the doctrines of the original, primitive Church were wiser and more inherently true than the mass of interpretation and commentary accumulated over time. This, notion was, in part, that which motivated Luther translate the Bible into the language of the masses; and to insist that no theological education is either authentic or complete without an understanding of Biblical Hebrew and Greek, and then thorough study of original Old Testament Hebrew and New Testament Greek texts. I, personally, do not hold with the belief that study in the original Biblical languages is essential to the creation of effective preachers, though I do believe that it’s essential to the creation of effecitive teachers of preachers. But I digress. Sorry.
Nowhere in the Bible is there so much as a mention of many of the things which the Roman Catholic church holds nearest and dearest, including such things as papacy, worship/adoration of Mary (or even the immaculate conception of Mary, the perpetual virginity of Mary, the assumption of Mary, or Mary as co-redemptrix and mediatrix), petitioning saints, apostolic succession, the ordinances of the church functioning as sacraments, infant baptism, confession of sin to a priest, purgatory, indulgences, or the equal authority of church tradition and Scripture… among MANY other things.
The Bible, in fact, records the history of the church only to around 90 or 95 A.D.; and it wasn’t until from around 100 to 300 years later — particularly during the reign of the Roman Emperor Constantine, and the Council of Nicea — that we begin to see the earliest doctrines and practices which would eventually come to characterize Roman Catholicism… doctrines and practices which were a Constantinian compromise in order to unify the various forms of then-existing both Christianity and other practices such as paganism, the Egyptian Cult of Isis, Henotheism, Mithraism, and others.
What we DO have, though, is Paul, in Acts 20, John 10 and Galatians 1, specifically not teaching that Christians were to follow the first organized church as a means of safeguarding truth; but, rather, he commits Christians, simply, to the safekeeping of God and to the word of his grace… that which they had already received as both the words of the holy prophets and the commandments Jesus gave to the apostles as recorded in Scripture. This notion is also repeated in 2 Peter chapters 1 and 3.
By the 4th century, what was becoming the Roman Catholic church tradition had not-insignificantly departed from all that. Not significantly challenged from then until the 14th century, it was characterized by an interpreted and rationalized Thomistic scholasticism which was a product of, and heavily informed by, shifting cultural and historical events and beliefs. Keeping Scripture in Latin, and so making it inaccessible to the masses; and then also communicating the Word as a largely oral tradition because there had not been invented, yet, the printing press which would ultimately allow believers to read, for themselves, what riches were contained in the Bible…
…these things helped to keep the Roman Catholic church pretty much the only game in town — not the first game, mind you, but ultimately the biggest player — until the likes of Luther, Huss before him, and even such as Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch and Polycarp as far back as the first century, and Justin Martyr, Didymus the Blind, Hilary of Poitiers, Athanasius, Basil of Caesarea, Ambrose, Jerome, Chrysostom, Ambrosiaster, Augustine, Cyril of Alexandria, Fulgentius and many others before them…
…all grasped and embraced the notion of the salvation or justification by grace through faith, rather than by the futile works of penance, almsgiving, or asceticism. Luther believed that it was the most damnable pride to suppose that man could bring about his own salvation; that a just and merciful God had sent his only begotten son, Jesus Christ — and not the church and its works — to save us… to become the mediator, by whose aid a depraved humanity crosses the gulf between it and a perfect God. This radical and reformational doctrine of justification by grace (Sola Gracia) through faith (Sola Fide) undermined the entire sacerdotal system of the Roman Catholic church and, with it, the institutions that administered, licensed, and perpetuated it.
But, alas, I have now moved some 14 centuries beyond the scope of your original (mis)statement regarding whatever likely was the original church…
…the, I dare say, primitive, pre-Roman-Catholic church.
It may, in your irritation with this recounting of what ultimately became the terribly flawed Roman Catholic church, comfort you to know that Luther and his reformed church movement had no end of its own problems. It naturally found itself in need of a new confession of faith to distinguish itself from Roman Catholicism, and the defense of that faith required a new theology. Thus Luther found himself in the very same position of the earliest Christians who had had to choose between the kind individual religion and oneness with God on account of the cross, and the requirements of institutionalism in order to perpetuate said religion. Luther’s new theology, then, eventually became in most ways just as inflexible and orthodox as that which it decried. Those who opposed it were cast out just as were the Roman Catholics. Luther despised, foe example, the Anabaptists for, in part, their denial of the need for infant baptism (on the reasonable grounds that “God would not damn a little child for the sake of a drop of water”), and so Luther treated them most awfully and mercilessly.
No one ever said that Luther didn’t do a pretty good job of goofing-up his own thing by the time he left this mortal coil. And I don’t even know where to even BEGIN with his rank antisemitism. Oy!
But none of that has anything to do, really, with your notion of what was or wasn’t the first church…
…though it pretty much addresses, head on, the part where you wrote about what will always be.
It might be time for you to stop just opening the top of your skull as if it had a hinge on it, and letting the Roman Catholic church just dump in, unexamined, its sometimes foul propaganda. Santayana wrote that those who do not know their history are doomed to repeat it. For any of us to fully understand where we should be with regard to our faith, we need to fully understand where was everyone who came before us…
…but uncolored by a centuries-old church with a centuries-old tradition of misleading its parishioners.
Get a clue, Peter…
…the significance of which moniker, by the way, within the context of this conversation about the first church, is not lost on me, to wit:
“You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it” (Matt. 16:18)…
…is but one of five metaphores in Roman Catholicism for the founding of the church (the others being 1 Cor. 3:11, Eph. 2:20, 1 Pet. 2:5–6, and Rev. 21:14).
But I digress, yet again…
…sorry.
________________________________________
Gregg L. DesElms
Napa, California USA
gregg at greggdeselms dot com
Great response! Gregg, I do enjoy reading your posts!
Thank you so much for this very informative answer to a badly phrased statement.
Gregg
I was so underwhemed with this sites posting about the differences between the Lutheran and Cathloic religions.
Still I am very glad to have come to this site due to your very informative post. I was completely engrossed and delighted by your knowledge and what you posted.
It is so very much better than this sites meager offering. Thank you for taking the time to share it.
Glory and Honor and Praise to God and my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
Amen
Gregg,
Thank you for clarifying in a way that puts history back into religious doctrine that has been mythicized, misinterpreted as well as mistaught over the centuries. We often take the churches “word for it” and rarely do our own research to gain a true understanding of what teaching we are sitting under each Sunday. Understand mans imperfect roll in the structure doctrinal religion is imperative and should provoke us to get into the Word and seek truth. And although I am neither Catholic or Lutheran, I am very thankful for the ones who recognized the injustices being burdened on the masses and who took the time to provide us with the stepping stone of a translated version of the Hebrew and Greek scriptures, affording us the opportunity to study it for ourselves as well as holding the preachers and teachers of the Word accountable. Thanks again!
TO: Mark (formerly Peter)
Obviously the way this web site dates/times postings is screwed-up because your “January 26, 2011 • 2:27 am” posting is a reply to my “January 26, 2011 • 9:27 pm” posting. Hmm. I wonder if the system meant “January 27” on yours. Oh, well.
At any rate, if you really had the courage of your Roman Catholic convictions, then you’d indicate your real name, as I have; or, at the very least, you’d pick just one fake name and then stick with it. Running through the names of the Gospels is already getting old… and assuming you only intend to use each once, also means that you have only two posts remaining. [grin]
Additionally, please don’t type in all-capital letters. In the world of blog commentary postings, chat rooms, forum postings, newsgroup postings, etc., it signifies that you’re yelling; and it’s perhaps the most well known and rude breach of “netiquette” there is. Moreover, in a circumstance such as this, it just makes you look like a rank amateur who’s so outmatched that all he has left is to try to talk louder; and it just irritates anyone who reads this discussion, whom you’re clearly trying to impress.
Beyond that, I don’t see anything in what you wrote that’s sufficiently coherent or relevant to merit a reply. You clearly have neither debating skills, nor the theological underpinning needed in this discussion with which to arm them. My time — and yours, too — is better spent doing other things.
There is nothing wrong with your being blindly loyal to the Roman Catholic church. Your faith is your faith; and the differences between your church and mine are not sufficiently great for there to be so much bickering about it. Apparently the Roman Catholic church agrees, or there would never have been the Joint Statement on the Doctrine of Justification by Faith co-issued by the Roman Catholic U.S. Bishops’ Committee for Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs and the USA National Committee of the Lutheran World Federation in 1983; and then the follow-up Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification on October 31, 1999. And the two church bodies would not also be planning a shared Lutheran/Roman Catholic commemoration of the October 31, 2017, which is the 500th anniversary of Martin Luther’s posting of his 95 Theses; or the “Hope for Eternal Life” round of talks leading up to it (the 11th round of talks since such talks began in July of 1964.
There are zealots like you among Lutherans, too. The conservative Lutheran Church Missouri Synod (LC-MS) was disinvited to the 10th round of the aforementioned talks (after having been present for all nine earlier rounds) because it could simply not reconcile its rigid and repressive understanding of such notions as faith, sin, grace, the eucharist, etc., sufficiently with either the more liberal/progressive ELCA Lutherans, or the Roman Catholics, that it made any sense for it to be at the table anymore. The LC-MS has, however, agreed to participate in the 11th round; though with people among its ranks who are as inflexible as you would appear to be (and believe me, that’s most of them), it seems unlikely that they’ll fare in these next talks much better in the future than they have in the past.
But we digress, yet again. The bottom line is that the article in chief to which these are comments grossly misstates the differences between Roman Catholocism and Lutheranism, and needs to be rewritten. I would be more than happy to do it if asked; and if I did, I believe I could do it in such a way that both church bodies’ beliefs are so fairly represented that even you would be satisfied. An article like the one to which these are comments needs to be neutral as to its author’s underlying beliefs, and needs to simply present the differences dispassionately and like a hard news story. Even my commentary, here, is too slanted… in my case, toward Lutheranism.
My complaint, in my first posting, then, was simply that the article in chief was clearly written by someone who doesn’t know how to sublimate his/her Roman Catholic underpinnings and just dispassionately explain the differences without denigrating either church body along the way. That’s the problem. Whether the Roman Cathlics or the Lutherans have an inherently better way of understanding and/or doing things has nothing to do with how and why the original article, to which these are comments, was so poorly written; and what needs to be done to correct it.
Newspaper reporters writing hard news stories also have beliefs and opinions. They’re human beings, just like anyone else; and they belong to one political party or the other, or are or aren’t religious, or are or aren’t liberal or conservative, etc. Yet they’re able to write the hard news story dispassionately, without revealing by the way they wrote it what is their personal opinion or belief system. That’s what makes them professionals. The article in chief on this page should have been written that way. It wasn’t, and that was why I made my September 11, 2010 posting in the first place. All the rest of this “conversation” in these comments is irrelevant to the simple fact that the article in chief on this page was very poorly written, and is clearly from a Roman Cathlolic perspective, and so needs to be rewritten so it is less skewed toward either Catholicism or Lutheranism and simply spells-out the differences. Period.
That was my complaint, and I stand by it. All the rest of this is irreconcilable, and is, therefore, just a waste of time. Though I’ll happily re-write the article in chief if asked, I’ll not, then, further participate in the dialog that’s now limping its sorry way through these comment postings. With that, I’m done here… er… well… that is, maybe unless someone posts here something worthy of actual debate (and does so without yelling it).
Adieu.
________________________________________
Gregg DesElms
Napa, California USA
gregg at greggdeselms dot com
Wow.. don’t type in all caps? You are an idiot
HA! He is an arrogant, condescending….Something else!!! It wouldn’t be very Christian of me to call him what I really would like to call him!!! Then again, maybe someone should put him in his place. He isn’t exactly acting like the good Christian he claims to be by writing this way to these other people on this site. He is very rude. Like I said previously……Not everyone knows the proper “Netiquette”…….Not everyone is a blog nerd, and knows not to type in all CAPS. Doing so probably doesn’t make a difference to “normal” people. Also, to be telling someone to “take their meds”???? This guy is just looking for a fight with people. He’s obviously angry. May God Bless him, and bring him some peace so he doesn’t have to stay up all night being rude to people online.
Your comment is no more kind or loving than was Gregg’s. As believers, we should all be above petty arguing and name-calling. We are called to love others, even when they say something that annoys or irritates us. We should say what we say with love, respect, and kindness.
In a really bid to point out the flaws of other people you have sadly became guilty of really un-christian like behaviour which I for one find quite disturbing and extremely unappealing.
Sociological Imagination much.
Jesus Christ said that I will build my church upon this rock. He did not say I will build 30,000 different variations of churches. When I go to Catholic mass every week it’s the same no matter where I go. There are so many variations in the protestant religion, each splintered off because of some disbelief from the other
The Rock is God through the whole Bible. Jesus ,being God, is our Rock. All the Mary adoration and rosary are not in the Bible. Jesus told us to only pray “Our Father” not our mother. That is the main difference between ancient Christian teaching and Catholic teaching.
wow, MAYBE YOU WERE REPLYING TO ME GREG TOO, I DONT WANT AN ARGUMENT AT ALL. AS FOR ME I SEE TOO MANY INVALID CLAIMS AGAINST THE CHURCH(UNIVERSAL) BY BIBLE CHRISTIANS. ATTACK AFTER ATTACK.
I REALLY DONT KNOW TOO MUCH ABOUT LUTHERANISM, BUT HAVE BEEN STUDYING BAPTISTS AND JEHOVAHS WITNESSES MOSTLY. BUT ALL HAVE A BEEF WITH THE CATHOLICS BY ONE DOCTRINE OR ANOTHER. MOST ARNT EVEN UNIFIED IN THEIR DISAGREEMENT . THE MANY DIFFERENT CHURCHES THAT I HAVE VISITED IN MY SEARCH FOR GOD ALL PUT IMPORTANCES OF FAITH AT DIFFERENT AREAS AND HOW THEY PUT THEM TO USE ,AND MOST EMPHASIZE THE BIBLE. BUT WHAT I ALSO FIND IS THERE IS NO UNIFIED INTERPRETATIONS OF THE BIBLE… IS THAT WHAT JESUS WANTS ? BAPTISTS DONT BELIEVE THE GIFTS OF HEALING OR SPEAKING IN TONGUES ARE STILL AROUND BUT PENTECOSTALS DO.
A NOTED CATHOLIC CONVERT WITH MANY BOOKS AND CD’S, SCOTT HAHN, HAS SAID THAT THE U.S. CONSTITUTION IS THERE FOR EVERY AMERICAN TO READ, BUT YET THERE IS A SUPREME COURT ENACTED TO BE THE ONLY ONES WITH THE JOB TO INTERPRET IT. THE SAME GOES FOR WHAT JESUS TOLD PETER… AS THE MAN WHO WOULD FEED JESUS’ SHEEP(CHURCH). HE ALSO GAVE PETER HIS FULL AUTHORITY BY GIVING HIM THE KEYS TO THE KINGDOM. HE ALSO TOLD PETER WHAT EVER HE BOUND ON EARTH WOULD BE BOUND IN HEAVEN, AND WHATEVER LOOSED ON EARTH WOULD BE LOOSED IN HEAVEN. WHAT MORE DO BIBLE CHRISTIANS WANT WHEN THEY SAY ”WHERE DOES IT SAY IN THE BIBLE…?” PETER WAS THE MAN…. I ASK YOU WHY WAS PETER THE ONE WHO KICKED OUT THE FIRST HERETICS, APPOINTED THE FIRST SUCCESSOR TO THE APOSTLES(MATHIAS), ANNOUNCED THAT GENTILES COULD BECOME CHRISTIANS, PERFORMED THE FIRST MIRACLE AFTER JESUS, THE LIST GOES ON. HE IS MENTIONED SOME 195 TIMES IN THE N.T. MORE THAN ALL THE OTHER APOSTLES COMBINED..
HE IS MENTIONED AS ” PETER AND HIS COMPANIONS’ BECAUSE HE WAS THE LEADER. EVEN PAUL , WHO DIDNT GET ALONG WITH PETER A WHOLE BUNCH ASKED FOR AUTHORITATIVE ACTION FROM PETER. SO , FIRST IF CHRISTIANDOM AGREES WITH PETER AS THE ROCK UPON WHICH THE CHURCH WILL BE BUILT, THEN HOW DOES IT END? DOES IT END WITH PETER? OR DOES HE PASS THE KEY ONTO LINUS WHO PASSES THE KEY TO ANACLETUS, THEN CLEMENT, THEN EVARISTUS… ON AND ON. NOW WE HAVE BENEDICT… NOT TO MENTION THE FIRST 30 POPES DIED AS MARTYRS. IF IT WERENT FOR CONSTANTINE, NONE OF THE HOLY SITES IN JERUSELEM WOULD BE AVAILABLE FOR US TO VISIT. SUCH AS WHERE JESUS WAS BORN, CRUCIFIED, OR BURIED. IF YOU DENY HISTORY THEN YOU LOSE THE UNIVERSAL CHURCH . YOU LOSE THE MEANING OF WHAT THE APOSTLES LEARNED. JESUS ONLY SAID ONE CHURCH. AND HE KNEW AHEAD OF TIME THAT IT NEEDED TO BE GUARDED BY HIS PEOPLE. IT GREW. BY THE HOLY SPIRIT. LIKE AN ACORN GROWS INTO AN OAK TREE, IT DOESNT LOOK THE SAME BUT THE DNA IS THERE. WHY ARE THERE 35,000 DIFFERENT DENOMINATIONS AROUND THE WORLD YET THE CATHOLIC CHURCH CLAIMS TO BE THEE CHURCH? NO ONE ELSE CLAIMS IT OR APPLIES FOR THE JOB.
Why is it all in Caps!!!!
WOW GREG I FORGOT A COUPLE OF THINGS….THE ASSUMPTION OF MARY… AND JESUS BEING HER ONLY SON. FIRST DOESNT THE BIBLE SAY THERE ARE MANY THINGS THAT ARE NOT WRITTEN? YES. SO , YOU BELIEVE BY FAITH THAT THE EARLY CHURCH HAD IT GOING ON, THAT THEY WERE THERE. THAT WHAT THEY SAID AND PASSED ON WAS TRUE. THATS FAITH. THE BIBLE WAS ONLY WRITTEN BY 3 APOSTLES. WHAT ABOUT THE OTHER 10 ? WHERE THEY LAYING AROUND,OR WHERE THEY HEALING, TEACHING, APPOINTING BISHOPS, DEACON, AND PREBYSTERS LIKE THE BIBLE STATES?
THE ASSUMPTION OF MARY IS THE FACT THAT MARY WHEN SHE DIED COULD NOT BE FOUND. THERE IS NO RECORDED BURIAL OF HER. SO , IF SHE WAS WATCHED OVER BY THE EARLY CHURCH AND MOSTLY APOSTLE JOHN IN EPHESUS AND THE MANY FOLLOWERS OF HIM AND HER THEN WHY COULDNT THEY BURY HER? ALL THE APOSTLES EXCEPT JUDUS ARE BURIED IN A CATHOLIC CHURCH. WOW!!!!!!! GIVE CREDIT TO THE CATHOLICS PLEASE! BUT IF MARY WAS SUCH AN IMPORTANT PART OF THE EARLY CHURCH(REMEMBER SHE WAS AT THE UPPER ROOM ON PENTECOST) THEN WHY DIDNT THEY BURY HER OR WHY DONT THEY KNOW WHERE SHE’S BURIED? WE ASSUME SHE WENT TO BE IN HEAVEN BOTH BODY AND SOUL. GOTTA HAVE FAITH. REV 12:1–2 KINGS 2:11 AND QUEENS HAVE CROWNS LIKE THAT WHICH IS STATED IN REV 12:1
AND AS FOR MARY NOT HAVING OTHER CHILDREN, WELL ITS LIKE THE CHURCH SAYS. THAT BRETHREN IS A WORD ALSO FOR COUSINS. THAT THERE WAS NOT A WORD FOR COUSINS IN THE FIRST LANGUAGE OF THE N.T. WHICH IS ARAMAIC. ALSO THERE WAS ALOT OF EXTENDED FAMILY AROUND SUCH AS ELIZABETH AND HER CHILDREN. ANOTHER MARY IS ALSO MENTIONED., MAYBE AN AUNT. THERE ARE BRETHREN, BOTH MALE AND FEMALE, OF JESUS MENTIONED MANY TIMES, BUT NO PERSON IS EVER MENTIONED AS SON OR DAUGHTER OF MARY , OTHER THAN JESUS.
MARK 6:3 SAYS”” IS THIS NOT THE CARPENTER… THE SON OF MARY?”(‘THE SON’, NOT
‘A SON’ SHOWS MARY HAD NO OTHER SONS.
BUT THE BIGGEST ARGUMENT IN SUPPORT OF A ‘ONE CHILD’ MARY IS WHEN JESUS SAYS WHILE ON THE CROSS ”JOHN THERE IS YOUR MOTHER, WOMAN THERE IS YOUR SON”.AND FROM THAT HOUR ON HE TOOK HER INTO HIS HOME.(JOHN 19:27) NOW JEWISH CUSTOM WOULD HAVE MEANT THAT IF SHE HAD NO ONE ELSE THEN A CLOSE FRIEND WOULD TAKE CARE OF HER AS A WIDOW OR ALONE PERSON. IF SHE HAD OTHER CHILDREN THEN THEY WOULD HAVE TAKEN HER INTO THEIR HOME, BUT THE BIBLE DOESNT SAY THAT.
sorry greg, is this better? my name is mark. i am not paranoid—- but i dont to ‘need’ to give you my last name to justify what am writing on this blog. have ”faith” that i am not trying to trick you by calling myself ‘peter’ or ‘mark’ and maybe tommorrow ‘matthew’. my name is mark…lets stop the arrogance and get on with a christian discussion or get off this site-please.
That you’ve stopped “yelling” (by no longer typing in all-caps) won’t now make me go back and read any of the “yelling” (in all caps) that you did. When I said I wouldn’t read it, I wasn’t kidding.
So if you have a point, then please now (re-)make it, in upper-and-lower-case letters, like normal people…
…speaking of which: When I wrote upper-and-lower-case, I meant that, and not the all-lower-case that you’re using. All lower-case is what I consider “text speak,” and is the lazy behavior of people who spend entirely too much time texting everything in their lives, and have forgotten where is the [Shift] key; and who think that punctuation and proper typing don’t matter anymore, and that “close is good enough.”. All that such an attitude reveals about you is that you’re (likely) young, and (definitely) lazy, don’t sweat important details, and are probably not terribly well-educated.
I usually don’t respond to all-lower-case, either. I figure if the other person can’t put enough effort into the discussion to bother to type things correctly, and like all parts of it matter, then they usually don’t have much to say that’s worthy of a response. So if you’d like my further silence in response to anything you type which is not in all-caps, but is exactly the opposite, in all lower-case, then you just go ahead and keep doing it.
And it’s “Gregg,” by the way: Three g’s, not in a row. Not “Greg.” Your reputation for attention to detail (or, more accurately, your lack thereof) seems to precede itself, doesn’t it. (a rhetorical question… more like a statement, actually)
And no one’s being arrogant, so I’d appreciate that you dispense with that flip accusation, thankyouverymuch.
I’m also none too keen about you seeming to tell me to either do what you want or get off the site; however, I think what you meant was that we should both either discuss, rationallly, the “Christian discussion,” or get the heck out of here and stop bothering people… that sort of thing. At least that’s what I want to believe. I’ll not further respond to it, though, in any case.
Other than this, I won’t respond, either, to your assertions as to which alias you’ve used, here, that’s the same as the names of the Gospels. You, me, and God (and any reader, here, with a brain) all know what is the truth… and how many of us — assuming you’re taking your meds — are actually involved in this conversation.
As for our now getting on with the Christian discussion…
…you mean we hadn’t finished?
[sigh]
________________________________
Gregg DesElms
Napa, California USA
gregg at greggdeselms dot com
Hi, Mitch. Well-written, right back atcha’!
As I was reading your words, I noticed your reference to “The Eucharist,” and it reminded me of an actually (surprisingly) well-written piece on that phrase that I found some time back on the WordAlone web site. Yes, I’ve read its stuff, even though I hold with little on it. I’m a former LCA Lutheran, not a former ALC one. The WordAlone, and former “Solid Rock” Lutherans, and now the “Lutheran Core” (aka “The North American Lutheran Church” (NALC)) folks all tend to be former ALC. And I’m not sure what ever happened to the 100,000 or so AELC Lutherans who jumped-in to the 1987 LCA/ALC/AELC merger to form the ELCA.
But I am, in any case, of the more liberal/progressive types of Lutherans; but, beyond that, I’m a dowright progressive Chiristian, just generally, who is very ecumenical/interfaith, just generally; and who holds, generally, with the folks at http://www.tcpc.org and their both “8 points,” as well as their acquired “Crosswalk America” and its interesting “Phoenix Affirmations.” I like the Episcopalians, too.
I still self-identify as an ELCA Lutheran, in the main; however I find myself very aware of and tuned-in to Lutheranism’s Roman Catholic heritage; and if I ever form the national church that I (crazy person that I can sometimes be) have up my sleeve, it will likelly be an interesting blend of Lutheranism and Roman Catholicism… sort of cherry-picking the best of both traditions, with some of the best of whatever other mainline traditions naturally fit…
…and, yes, I realize that some people call that the “United Church of Christ” (UCC), except that there’s too much variance permitted in the UCC… too many churches at both ends of the progressive/conservative spectrum. My church, if I ever form it, will be decidedly at the left end, with nothing at any other end (or even very much toward the middle). Those who don’t like that can just go join the UCC. [grin]
Anyway, the term “Eucharist” is taken issue with rather interestingly — and possibly even theologically convincingly — by the WordAlone article I was reading on the subject some time back. I’ll see if I can find it, and put a link to it, here; or you can go look at the WordAlone site (if you can bring yourself to so do) and see if you can spot it. It’s pretty good, I must admit. Worth the search.
In fact, for a remarkably authentic view of the traditionally Lutheran approach to worship, versus the Roman Catholic approach — particularly the very interesting differences in viewpoint (who’s the mass ultimately for) — can also be found there… along with lots of other pretty cool theology (along, course, with some pretty screwed-up theology, too… it is, after all, the WordAlone site).
I could not more agree with what that pastor told you; and I have often heard that kind of rhetoric used to explain why Lutheran is not just another protestant denomination.
I’ll tell you a story I think you’ll like…
Back in the ’80s, when I lived in the “Miller” (Beach) section of Gary, Indiana, our then-LCA church there was a teaching parish for the nearby (LCA-owned) Lutheran School of Theology Chicago (LSTC) seminary. We used to have a thing on Wednesday evenings called “Soup, Song and Sacrament,” where we’d all bring pot luck side dishes, and someone would make the soup, and we’d eat, and pray, and talk about whatever the pastor decided was the subject for the evening… stuff like that. It was sort of informal Bible study, but where it was sorta’ okay if you forgot to bring your Bible.
Anyway, one evening a final-year seminarian from LSTC was invited to come and talk with our group. He had done his first… I think three years… or so… at a Roman Catholic seminary, studying for the priesthood. A professor during the first semester of his either second or third year at the Catholic seminary gave him what the professor dismissed as the simple assignment of spending a bunch of time in the library perusing through The Complete Works of Martin Luther, and then writing a paper on why Luther was wrong.
The seminarian said that he did the assignment with enthusiasm, confident that all the ways that Luther was misguided would become painfully self-evident. But he found it a bigger challenge than he thought…
…and when he finally turned-in the paper, it stated, simply that the assignment had been to peruse all 55 (or 57, depending on the publisher) volumes of The Complete Works of Martin Luther and list the salient reasons why Luther was wrong…
…and beneath that he wrote, “the problem is that he wasn’t.” And then he added, beneath that: “And so I’ve now been accepted into an ELCA seminary. Bye.”
Godasmywitness: True story. Of course, there was more to his presentation that evening than just that. He went on to specify the precise things which tipped it in for him. But it really made a huge impression on me.
Something interesting to do, if you ever have the opportunity, is to sit around with a bunch of Lutheran pastors is to ask the simple question: “Why Lutheran and not… well… pretty much anything else?”
The answers are particularly interesting from those who grew-up in a different faith tradition; but no matter their background, I’ve noticed that the one thing on which they all seem to wholeheartedly agree is that Luther — depressed (likely bi-polar), anti-semitic, anabaptist-hating, cynical, earthy, self-loathing, beer swilling, voice-hearing whackjob that he could sometimes be — bygod pretty much got it right… the basic theology of it all, I mean. It’s the most reasonable understanding of scripture out there, they’ll fairly enthusiastically all tend to say…
…adding how kinda’ surprising that is, considering how truly screwed-up the dude otherwise was.
For those who want a Reader’s Digest (but nevertheless really high-quality) take on and understanding of Luther, I cannot more strongly recommend the book on Luther that Martin Marty wrote for the Penguin Life series.
And for both those who aren’t Lutheran but who would like to better understand being one from the perspective of everyday church life; or for those already Lutheran who want to be better at parish life, I could not more strongly recommend “Reclaiming the ‘L’ Word: Renewing the Church from Its Lutheran Core” by Kelly Fryer.
I like to recommend those two because they’re both short books which can be devoured in a day or two each (or less); and they do a good job of helping people kind of begin to GET it, a little bit, regarding being Lutheran.
Nice to have you chime in.
Peace.
________________________________
Gregg L. DesElms
Napa, California USA
gregg at greggdeselms dot com
too long!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wow ! Is Gregg (with 2 g’s) the most pretentious Lutheran apologist
you’ve ever had to endure? I bet he records himself speaking and plays
it back for a special thrill. Bottom line is , the Roman Catholic church
may have been perverted by man along the road to its present place
in society and history but it still retains its primacy as the original church
of Jesus Christ.
Thank You! I “skimmed” over his responses…..But just could not handle it anymore! He is obviously educated, OR educating himself in The Bible, since he tends to reference MANY scriptures…But then again, all us Christians know we have books on our shelves that can give us a list of scriptures relating to every topic…….But anyway, HOW ANGRY IS THIS GUY GreGG?!?!?!? The way he REALLY wanted to “pick a fight” with everyone…..REALLY NOT SO CHRISTIAN OF YOU GREgg. I really found you to be “full of yourself” and condescending. You are NOT God…..So, please stop judging. Also, not everybody is YELLING when they write in CAPS…..Not everyone is a BLOG NERD, and knows the proper “Netiquite” (HA!HA!) okay?
Take Up Your Cross and Follow Jesus
24 Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.25 For whoever would save his lifet will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul?27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
Matt 16: 24-28
First of all I don’t understand why some of you guys are making such a big deal about caps or no caps. WHO CARES! And second we all have our own faith beliefs how about we just stick with them and don’t shove them into other peoples faces and just get along. OK?
I was a Lutheran and the reason I became Catholic is because all i was ever told about Catholics was false. The two pillars of the Lutherans are Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura, We are saved by faith alone and the bible is the sole authority. Now if you can show me a Bible that doesn’t contradict sola fide and where it supports Sola Scripura, I will flip back to lutheran in a flash…sadly though the Bible doesn’t support luthers docrine. peace 🙂
Good story about what turned out to be, the term paper!
All those Lutheran abbreviations are lost on many though… I’m sure.
lol. a click too many made for the reply in the wrong thread.
To quote a famous commentor, WOW!
How does seeing a contradiction in the Bible lead you to abandon the Bible as the sole source of truth and go with “the infallible word of men” ?
Gregg, this is the internet and was meant for fun. You don’t need to type up essays. Just saying.
And I thought the internet was a tool of the Illuminati?
Please respond to this unfamiliar principle of “fun.”
…or not.
🙂
I came to this site as a Christian who is neither Catholic nor Lutheran, seeking to understand the major differences between the two faiths. In the original article, I found very little that was useful to understanding the two faiths, and after reading a few responses, found nothing really useful there either.
I think there was a comment about a book or article or something that could help you … and remember you heard it here first!
Are you two serious ! Give each other a break. Find something more positive to do with your time.
Some guy whom I’ll re-name Greggory but not out of disrespect, only because his father won an argument with his mother and I’m on her side, said:-
“And no one’s being arrogant, so I’d appreciate that you dispense with that flip accusation, thankyouverymuch.”
To which everyone else said:-
“Really?”
No really, I could hear it all the way into 2015!
It’s too bad that your initial point of reference to the unbiased nature of this article was dismissed, or glossed over with “THE POPE IS NUMBER ONE!” I see you tried to return to it. The defense of any religious organization gets in the way of a true defense of Christ. I think you acknowledge this… BUT THEN! tHOSE DARN caps…
Oops, I left the lock on. Hope you all got past that.
No lower case is allowed on the internet? Didn’t hear that one before.
To simplify the case in point, I mean the point in case…
As well as the “netiquette” – all caps is particularly hard to read. Fonts and letter spacing are a work of comprehension speed and ability and not just pretty ways to form letters. Unless your in advertising, then all that counts is whats hidden in and under and in-between the words.
🙂
No caps and missing punctuation can make long and difficult sentences harder to understand but at least are easier on the animal part of the brain.
Well, I did read all those caps. Phew!
I can pound out a few sentences myself.. as you’ll see.
***
Marcus Arileus, famous defender of Rome wrote much. I’ll use caps for his part of this discussion and typical case for my unimpressive response… which now that I’ve proof read should be half omitted but with all this writting I’ll let you decide how much is too much. In typical internet fashion, if you read all the way to the end, a lovely bouquet of flowers will be delived to your door overnight. Probably COD.
EVENTHOUGH LUTHER DIDNT WANT TO LEAVE THE CHURCH HE OPENED UP THE FLOODGATES.
Papal abuse opened the floodgates. Gospel truth (or Pauls letters, whichever you call gospel) mearly gave people hope to resist. According tho the Vatican “reforms were already underway.” Yeah, lets enshrine the Pope as head next to Christ… (wait is that what Christ was telling John and James… a hint that throne seat next to him is for Peter.) Like that’s a reform the people of God need. I’m thinking that Luther should have renounced the Church of Rome entirely, burned his accreditation? and got the ball roling to real reform. An apostles example would be Paul calling every claim to understanding and authority he had before meeting Jesus, as just a pile of garbage.
DIDNT HE SAY THAT EVEN THE PLOWBOYS AND SERVANT GIRLS ARE INTERPRETING
Some of Gods favorite people I might add. For some reason, God likes a servant heart. Not usually found in throne contenders. Remember, the upside-down theology of Christ’s heavenly kingdom? To be sure, servants can be found anywhere and I do pray that this is the heart of every papal contender…or at least the one that gets the right smoke. Remember also, God gave the Israelites Jeraboam, with a promise he could keep the kingdom.. if only…!
MOST ARNT EVEN UNIFIED IN THEIR DISAGREEMENT .
Not a good resason to brag… It’s a bit like saying… “There are so many different reasons to call Catholic doctrines unbiblical, why bother?”
NO ONE ELSE CLAIMS IT OR APPLIES FOR THE JOB.
What job? Are you refering to the Holy Spirits job? Did he quit? This is the New Testament example enshrined by the apostles.
THE MANY DIFFERENT CHURCHES THAT I HAVE VISITED IN MY SEARCH FOR GOD
God doesn’t live in churches any more. Actually, never did. Solomon confessed it is so. So we know you never found God then, if you stopped looking at the church with the biggerst claims on earth.. and adopted those.
BUT WHAT I ALSO FIND IS THERE IS NO UNIFIED INTERPRETATIONS OF THE BIBLE… IS THAT WHAT JESUS WANTS ?
Apparently so, or he would have left us without clear and concise doctrines of how to build with bricks and purple robes. Perhaps he just wants to see how we get along without him.
A NOTED CATHOLIC CONVERT WITH MANY BOOKS AND CD’S, SCOTT HAHN, HAS SAID THAT THE U.S. CONSTITUTION IS THERE FOR EVERY AMERICAN TO READ, BUT YET THERE IS A SUPREME COURT ENACTED TO BE THE ONLY ONES WITH THE JOB TO INTERPRET IT.
Does Scott Hahn also suggest that ascension to the court should be by the laying on of hands, or birthright or??? Or does he keep that separate? Too bad the Jews didn’t have books to save them.
THE SAME GOES FOR WHAT JESUS TOLD PETER… AS THE MAN WHO WOULD FEED JESUS’ SHEEP
I think a better interpretation would be to say that Christ is telling Peter to spend his efforts feeding the lost masses, instead of chopping of the ears of resisters.
Perhaps Jesus is trying to keep Peter from becoming Muslim, not putting him above other apostles… which you (through your somewhat blind acceptance of Church of Rome doctrine) clearly believe to be biblical. Clearly, the only authority is God and his bi-partisan son and his Holy Spirit. Evry human endevour, whether sanctioned by God or not, needs leaders. Peter was/is a leader. We have other leaders now. Peter had to be corrected to accept Gentiles… by the Spirit of the Living God no less, and even then he seemed to struggle with it. Hard to break with tradition.
IF IT WERENT FOR CONSTANTINE, NONE OF THE HOLY SITES IN JERUSELEM WOULD BE AVAILABLE FOR US TO VISIT.
Um… Really? Even the Muslim heads of authority will let the Pope come and see the head of John the Baptist. (is that correct… have I got the right relic?)
JESUS ONLY SAID ONE CHURCH. AND HE KNEW AHEAD OF TIME THAT IT NEEDED TO BE GUARDED BY HIS PEOPLE
So you’re saying then, that the Pope is one of Gods people? If I was to set foot in a Catholic church, would I learn that there? Ok, that was a bit cheeky of me. Just my opinion let’s say.
In context, So what teaching of Jesus is this?
BY THE HOLY SPIRIT. LIKE AN ACORN GROWS INTO AN OAK TREE, IT DOESNT LOOK THE SAME BUT THE DNA IS THERE.
With that argument then every Protestant church has that same DNA. Just because they don’t look catholic doesn’t mean they aren’t. I mean they just need to grow up and claim authority. Oh wait they already do, by the Holy Spirit. Some even claim so apparently without. Another poor analogy Mark. Does that come from Church of Rome too? A popular CD. Analogies are difficult. Even Christs fall down under one reasonable argument or another. He used many different ones to try and get across kingdom principle to earthly language. Better to live by the Spirit of the Living God.
YET THE CATHOLIC CHURCH CLAIMS TO BE THEE CHURCH? NO ONE ELSE CLAIMS IT OR APPLIES FOR THE JOB.
What job? Do you mean the Holy Spirits’ job? Did he quit? Maybe he was ex-communicated for investing in non Church of Rome people. Just a guess, as I don’t know everything the Holy Spirit is up to. But I know some things.
“The gates of hell won’t prevail against it (the church.)”
I guess in Latin, that means the Popes chair is safe.
Russ McLeod
… just another bride of the Chosen King.
Again, responding to Mark…
SO , IF SHE WAS WATCHED OVER BY THE EARLY CHURCH AND MOSTLY APOSTLE JOHN IN EPHESUS AND THE MANY FOLLOWERS OF HIM AND HER THEN WHY COULDNT THEY BURY HER? ALL THE APOSTLES EXCEPT JUDUS ARE BURIED IN A CATHOLIC CHURCH. WOW!!!!!
Yeah, the apostles Mark.
It’s good to hear the Pope decreed that the apostles could be buried in his church though. It gives us a sense of history.
THE ASSUMPTION OF MARY IS THE FACT THAT MARY WHEN SHE DIED COULD NOT BE FOUND.
Maybe it was kept secret because she was found in a compromising place.. like maybe a mosque, or in bed with that young stud, John.
Really, I’d like to confess right here and now that those words which came from my ugly heart weren’t befitting, undeserving, unhealthy for this discussion and perhaps even evil. I’d like to ask for forgiveness. Is there someone with that authority around? A fellow believer would suffice says James.. oh but wait he has a higher apostolic authority… Peter.
Peter says “a royal priesthood.” Perhaps it would be best if I just went to the top.
Unashamedly I come… “Father forgive me for my rude comment and taking such a base approach to a discussion of the beautiful mother of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (There’s trinity in that title !)
And yes dear readers, I did use those exact words. Was I out of order? I think not. Will I confess to another believer… a solemn priest of the true and catholic church. I just did if you were listening (and if you believe not, then just skip this verse) and if you wouldn’t mind acknowledging this for me, I would feel somewhat vindicated, not for my sin, but in my understanding of forgiveness.
[What’s that Lord? “You already did.”
Why, thank you.
“My passion covers sin in eternity.” What a beautiful concept Lord, You should let that be known through eternity.
“It is.”]
So, if I get eaten by a shark and no one sees me devoured, I can leave an Assuming name for myself. That is tempting. Much better than shooting up the public, which is the MO of other sick individuals.
WE ASSUME SHE WENT TO BE IN HEAVEN
Assuming she went to heaven isn’t really a stretch of faith dude!
WHY DIDNT THEY BURY HER or DONT THEY KNOW WHERE… (implying the same thing by association)
Ok. Now your faith is showing. Either hike it up or pull your outer garment down a bit.
THERE WAS NOT A WORD FOR COUSINS IN THE FIRST LANGUAGE OF THE N.T.
I gather thats likely accurate… not ‘A’ word. But what you neglect to mention Mark (or Pope #42… not sure at this point who’s talking. Wait is that 42 popes or presidents? I don’t know that either, Eh?) But what it neglects to mention is that cousins ARE specified in both books by referring to the name of their immediate or generational father/mother or city of birth or other such statement to clarify and to not confuse. Just claiming there are other Mary’s doesn’t satisfy the question, and in fact tends to be misleading. Why add confusion for the saints? What is the motive of speaking obfuscation….or Latin as it was called in recent times past, maybe not so long ago, but before my time.
‘THE SON’, NOT ‘A SON’ SHOWS MARY HAD NO OTHER SONS.
Nope. Wrong. Bad language assumption. Not explicit. Not implied. Not nothing not. (A triple negation resorts to the original without negation. Do the math! Humor amongst the sinful sarcasm!) An evil of mixed thread comments you say, quoting Leviticus?
Better than Scott Hahns mixed metaphors…or whatever that was.
NOW JEWISH CUSTOM WOULD HAVE MEANT THAT IF SHE HAD NO ONE ELSE THEN A CLOSE FRIEND WOULD TAKE CARE OF HER AS A WIDOW OR ALONE PERSON.
And I guess you base that conclusion on the fact that Jesus never tried to correct any Jewish customs??? I mean c’mon man… where do you get this stuff!?!
I say correct as if he made people do things right, but I think better explained is that Jesusjust acted in accordance with God… not “the Jews.”
Hope you weren’t offended, but just in case…
May peace by upon you.
Russ
OK, that was very offensive, and may God have mercy on your soul.
I’ve read a lot of the commentary on this website, and much of it was complaining about things that are just common courtesy, not very common here, sadly.
But really? Speaking nasty about Jesus’ Mom?
Then acting like you can just put words of “I’m really sorry” out here? No, if you WERE sorry, you would have deleted before publishing. Instead, you mock God in expecting he doesn’t REALLY know what is in your heart.
May God have mercy on you.
Bottom line by treading tree word NIT versions etc) I cannot believe myself or any others simply headed to tyre dark side due to not excepting certain beliefs of humanistic character. The word is the word and even though different versions are totally intact, the importance of the trinity is utmost. To believe, be saved by grace with true repent is above all that no man on earth can supply or promise. Jesus kept it simple in terms, but as the spirit grows stronger thru faith and acceptance over time to educate ones knowledge, no man (even the Pope) is better than I at receiving Christ.
I’ve always found it ridiculous that Christians fight over who is right and who is wrong. Personally, I am Catholic. That is my choice, not just a product of my upbringing. I was raised Catholic and after trying out heavily and studying other religions, this is what I believe. To belittle ones beliefs simply based on what you believe or don’t, is not very Christian. The difference between Lutheran and Catholic is minimal. At the core, they both believe in the divinity of Jesus, kind of the basis of being a Christian, anything else and you wouldn’t be. From here on out, it’s schematics. Even Muslims and jews believe that the one true god is the God of Abraham. Try as you may to refute it, it is true. The Muslim religion even celebrates a holiday on the day that God tested Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. All in all, we need to put aside our differences, come together, and worship. I’m not saying Lutherans have to accept the pope, or that we should follow what this religion or that says. But, God, Yahweh, Allah, whatever you want to call him, since it’s all the God of Abraham, whether you practice “correct” or not, it’s all the same. Let’s be brothers in God, and trust in His love.
I love the passion you all have. What I do not like is the anger. My suggestion is to do a little less reading and fact checking. Go out and spend time with all God’s people. Church fairs, interfaith services ect. Those relationships we form will be more important than any differences we have.
Love to you all.
As I was born into a Lutheran family, confirmed and served as alter boy, I always believed in God, so I credit my foundation of belief to this church. As a teenager went a stray and could not have told you how a man can be saved, other then (believing in God) Lutherans do not make it personal, which I think this is where they need help, at lest for me. After going to hear other preachers and reading the bible for my self after years of partying thru high school. I went to the Lord of Lords in prayer and asked Him to forgive my sin. I did not go to a pastor or white collar guy. And I read in the bible that anyone who calls upon the lord will be saved. Based on what Christ did for me on the Cross. The bible now was my authority and I put it before any man as far as authority. The (upon this rock ) verse Catholics use to say their the first church are wrong on that verse. Jesus asked, “who do they say I am?” Peters (answer) You are the living Son of God. is what the church is built on. That this man, (Jesus) is God in the flesh. That’s it! Jesus called Peter the petrous, meaning movable stone, but this ROCK is it, And His name is Jesus, (unmovable, unchanging) if your Catholic and you don’t like reading this, you need to think about what you are personally trusting in to be saved.
Part 2. I believe their are saved people in all these denominations we are discussing. If you read Romans 10: 9-11 it explains what a Christian believes in their heart about Christ, I stand on these verses. It doesn’t mention water baptism for salvation, in the book of Acts, new believers were always baptized after believing. After they were told about the Resurection. Faith alone, Luther taught, he did not go far enough and kept a lot of Catholic stuff in there. I was baptized a second time at 19, after I prayed to receive Christ. My new life in Jesus started. Reading the bible is really important to day to day relationship with Christ, I still need to do better. But not to be saved, that’s a done deal.
some of these are really FUNNY!!!! hey MARK do YOU see how i used CAPS!!!
Gregg, I sincerely hope you read this response (which I understand may be doubtful considering the time span of this chain of comments).
I direct this response to you because, while anyone is allowed to chime in with opinions and commentary, it is your opinion I have concluded to value most of all commentators on this thread.
I’m a curious and, I like to believe, logical woman. I was born, raised, and confirmed Catholic. I don’t go to church, hardly ever. In fact, there’s a term for what I am, a CEO Catholic (Christmas Easter only). Not proud of it, and I don’t defend it, other than by saying I have doubts in my religion. Not in my faith that Jesus Christ was crucified for the forgiveness of our sins….I have doubt in my religion. I don’t believe I should have to go into a tiny booth and tell a priest my sins and pray 10 Hail Mary’s and 5 Our Fathers as pennance, just to make sure if I get hit by a bus on the way home that I’ll go to heaven…
God knows what’s in my heart. He knows, each time someone thinks his name in prayer or regret, whether their intentions and heart are true or if their regret is honest and pure.
Any person on the street of sound mind can learn the ways of Catholicism, can truly believe in God’s forgiveness, but can lie to a Priest…
I know right? The mere thought of lying to a Priest. Utter blasphemy.
But such is the risk of human error.
My point is this…i ended up on this thread strictly out of boredom and a random curiosity to fill said boredom with information about other Christian religions and how they differ from mine.
Now considering I don’t read the bible everyday or know detailed history of even my own faith in comparison of some comments on this thread, I’m not especially biased to defend my Catholic religion as the one true church. I honestly was expecting an article saying something alomg the lines of “Lutheranism and Catholicism are similar in many aspects considering one is a reformed version of the other. While they share the practices and general beliefs of “example a”, “example b”, “example c” and so on, just to name a few, their main differences are shown through the slight variations to the following few beliefs and practices listed below”
This is where they would list the differences. But they would list how each religion believes and practices. Would that have really been so hard?
And all of this bickering aside, it seems everyone, or nearly at least, forgot your main point…. this article was clearly written by a Catholic.
I don’t know this based on the information the article provided (since I’m not Lutheran, I would not know what was inaccurate)…I can tell based on the Lutheran based respones.
I know all to well, even as a CEO Catholic how frustrating it is to know something about your religion but have it constantly misundetstood by someone of another religion. Sad thing is I catch more flack and misinformed lectures from other Christians for being Catholic than I ever have from non-Christians for being Christian
So for the sake of sanity, maturity, and Christianity….give Gregg a break. Can’t we all just agree that the original article should be written from a non-biased, pro-informative, anti-degrading point of view?
I honestly find it funny seeing Christians arguing with each other, really lets God’s love shine through. In all seriousness this was probably written by a Lutheran which is why Catholicism is painted in a negative light but the reaction from ‘born again christians’ is honestly shocking. If you guys disagree, tell me why. Intellectual conversations are my caffeine. Also, this isn’t really a comparison of the beliefs and values of Catholics and Lutherans and is more of a ‘Lutheran history lesson detailing the shocking reality of the Catholic church’. I probably will never visit this site again tbf
I am an ELCC ( Canada ) member but most of my girlfriends in my single days were RC. I frequently worshipped at Catholic Mass , I felt completely comfortable with the liturgy whether in French or English , and felt welcome … then I was told that I was not permitted to take communion . Later, as “Open Table Communion ” , LGBT , abortion , and female clergy issues became more important to me, I found myself returning to my comfortable pew in the Lutheran church …
( but don’t get me started on Missouri Synod or I could start using caps ) .
I will trust in My lord and my God
And
Love one another as I have loved you
I sought: “Differences between Catholic and Lutheran.” There are many words written herein this response given to my question. However, they don’t say much . It provides very little information about the religious differences, practical, mass/service, prayer or any other differences. All I garnered is.. ‘Lutheran doesn’t believe in the Pope.’ Ok. And I knew that. Does that mean… everything is the same except that? I will have to go to the Lutheran services myself. . to learn the real, practical, genuine, theoretical and everyday and origin differences. . WWWWW..the facts, that I was merely trying to learn from a summary article like this one, where the simple question is not answered. Thanks Anyway. #
People listen to yourselves arguing over who is right and who is wrong, we are no one to judge. I am a Catholic and I belive Martin Luther May have had a valid point he was upset and disgusted at the way the Catholic Church was conducting themselves with those in power. If he didn’t want to start a new denomination then why did he split off and convince others to follow. We should all follow one Person,Sportit,God. We should all love him with all our Heart Mind and Soul. Jesus ultimate sacrifice put death to an end and saved us all. But he does say that you must ask for forgiveness to be saved and you must forgive all those who have trespassed against you. The Catholic Church has a the sacrament of confession. Which ultimately brings you to your most ashamed state of being praying for God Mercy. Yes we can all pray at night and ask God for forgiveness or even on your dying moment but to be absolved of sin you must do your pentance and only a Catholic Ordained Priest has a direct connection to pass that pentance down from Heaven to us. That way you must go to Church sit in a confessional and admit your sins no mater how uncomfortable it is the gift of resolution is compared to no other and helps you go on trying to sin no more. Every religion has in answered questions so save them for that day you meet God and don’t try to make some one else who believes in your same God feel he is wrong love everyone as God loves us go to church revive the sacrament of Holy Communion belive that the bread and wine is truly his flesh and blood and ask for forgiveness at all times for we do not know the hour the Lord has chosen for us so let us be prepared. May God Bless you all my Brothers and Sisters
Dear All, I have read the comments regarding the difference between The Lutheran church beliefs and those of The Catholic church, yes it is faith in our lord or the Holy Trinity which gives us courage and divinity, to work in God Consciousness which is actually our higher divine self above our soul, but merely having faith is not enough, we need to demonstrate that faith by overriding our ego, lust, greediness, bigotry etc and replacing them with love, compassion, humanity and fortitude, towards all , so faith towards God and demonstration through deeds or Karma are complementary wherein we accept each other without being judgemental and absolutely unconditionally ,wherein we can see the Kingdom of God within us ,and herein I am refer to Christ Consciousness and not merely the Yeshua of Flesh and bones who was mortally crucified and resurrected , so my viewpoint is let’s forget our differences and embrace each other in divine love by opening our hearts just like our saviour
I have been conducting scripture services in a large inner-city jail for over 25 years. While I use the weekly Sunday Catholic Mass readings for our lessons… I don’t mention any denomination except that we are a Christian gathering. I have tried to be consistent in how I interpret the bible readings… so I have some basic principles I refer to which I believe are from the bible:
1. Jesus said: ” I give you a new commandment… Love one another as I have loved you” ; (He died for us)
2. what’s impossible for man is only possible with God” ;
3. “God is Love” – 1John;
4, Unless you are born again of the Spirit (of God).. you cannot enter the Kingdom of heaven. He said this to Nicodemus who came with the holy scrolls to debate Jesus.
5. Thy Kingdom Come Thy will be done (God’s will )
6 . Love is the Fulfillment of the Law
7, Faith without works is dead ..
8. O Ye of little faith..
I have many more scriptual references… but I always come back to the same principle.. the golden rule.. love your neighbor as you love your self. I can’t Love my neighbor unless God’s love is in my heart. (Create a clean heart in me O Lord) .. there us more joy in heaven over 1 repent sinner than 99 who have no need to repent. When we seek to do Gods Will.. our faith must be tested.. “many are the troubles of the Just man” – Psalm 34.. Lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil. Our problems call us to have Trust In God. When we have a strong Faith, we will Trust that God will deliver us from evil (selfishness / self will )
I spent 9 yrs in a WELS school, made sure my daughter was confirmed in the Lutheran faith, and my grandson baptized WELS. After researching and examining many differences in religions and sick of all the rhetoric, I’m now a Buddhist. Christian’s are Christians about 1 hr/wk…in church. Nobody lives according to the teachings of Jesus and churches are too concerned with policies having nothing to do with the teachings of the Bible. Too much policy. Too much politics. I wont go back unless theres a very big change in organized religion….Lutheran or Catholic.
Hey Mike, I only respond to address your concern for converting. I understand this is a word thrown around in today’s society regarding the transition from one doctrine of belief to another, however, what I believe you are describing, changing from sitting under the catholic traditions to finding more peace under Lutheran traditions, requires no formal process.
Christ was a Jew. He taught Jews. He shepherded Jews. After his death, resurrection and Ascension, Paul was tasked with sharing this kingdom lifestyle lead by the Christ with the non-Jews, or gentiles. As a follower of the Christ, we “non-Jews” have been graphed into the body of Jews who understood, had faith and followed Jesus Christ. As a believer, regardless of which doctrine you choose to sit under(though I recommend choosing not a specific doctrine as much as the church and its message) you are already a member of the Bride. A valued and irreplaceable member of the Body of Christ. God Bless!